Product Description
Translated with an Introduction and Notes by Christopher Gill. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (8)

Love love love
I'm not a philosophy or ancient history student, I picked up Plato's "Symposium" to challenge myself and see if I could understand it. The "Symposium" is a gathering of Greek thinkers who sit around and give speeches about love.

Phaedrus talks about the greatness of love and how those who have it achieve great things. Pausanias talks of the merits of boy/man love where the boy pleasures the man while the man passes on his wisdom to the boy and that this is the best kind of love, not the lesser lover of procreation between man and woman. Eryximachus talks about how love is the source of all happiness. Aristophanes talks about how once upon a time there was no man or woman but a single human who had both sexes' characteristics. These creatures tried to scale the heavens and so Zeus cut them in half and ever since then man and woman have sought to create that single creature again. Socrates talks about his teacher Diotima and how she taught him that love was the only way human beings could be immortal.

"The Symposium" is a short read not to be rushed as there are some fascinating ideas here. Not new ones though but ones that have influenced western culture and thought for centuries. Aristophanes' and Diotima's especially are ideas I've come across before but didn't know they originated in this text. It's also very pro-pederasty which I thought was amusing and can see why some people might have thought Plato was a closet homosexual. Those Greeks certainly were liberated though.

It's an accesible and interesting little book though this Penguin Great Ideas edition features no notes, contextual history, introduction, glossary, reading list, etc which the Penguin Classics edition does so if you're studying this text I'd get that edition rather than this one.

Classic Plato
A great little book. It's a great translation and there's a lot of supplemental material here to help the reader understand the text a bit more, which is always helpful. Although as another reviewer noted, it can be hard to tell just who is speaking at any given moment. But that seems to be a common trend with all translations of Plato. All in all it's a great edition to own and great material to read.

Very important, but wrong
All philosophy, yesterday's and today's, is a battle between the two ancient Greeks, Plato and his student Aristotle. Thus, people who wants to understand the world, needs to know what each of these sages is saying, what the different premises of the two men are, and what are the ramifications of what they are saying.

This is no exaggeration. Take religion as an example. Plato's approach to life affected the way the general population understand religion, while Aristotle offered the intellectuals a realistic rational view of religion. What is the difference between them?

Plato had an otherworldly non-naturalistic idea of the world. How can people define anything, how can they relate to it? There is, Plato answered, an ideal that exists outside this world. Plato never said where this ideal is located - in the mind or in heaven or floating around in the upper atmosphere. An object, he claimed, is defined by how much it is like the ideal. Thus, for example, there is an ideal table and the table on earth can be called a table if and only if it is like the ideal table.

Take love as an example. Plato's Symposium describes a drinking party where Socrates and his acquaintances try to define love. Plato is a masterful writer, and the dialogue is filled with very entertaining dissimilar ideas. However, Socrates, Plato's hero and teacher, states that true love is love that is like the ideal of love.

This is clever, but it is not informative. It seems like a joke. But it isn't a joke. People lived according to Plato's worldview and abandoned thinking during the medieval dark ages until the renaissance when individuals, at least the more educated, began to rethink and reaccept the ideas of Aristotle. Of course, even during the dark ages there were some scholars who lived as Aristotle taught, but only a handful of people.

Plato's notion of the otherworldly unnatural ideal affected many religions. People, said the clerics, must organize their lives according to ideals that are in heaven. People, they said must not think about religion on their own. Why should they think? There is only one way to think and act, and it is the ideal that is in heaven.

Aristotle had a radically different rational and natural view. He encouraged people to think. They must examine nature, experiment with it and discover the truth. A good table has nothing to do with heaven; it is an object that serves people best to eat on, work on, put objects on, etc. Love is not what matches a heavenly ideal; it is a human relationship built on respect and trust, on ability to work with another for mutual benefits.

So, too, with religion. One can if one wants believe in a divine revelation. However the revelation continues and grows as humans grow. The revelation occurs here on earth; it is not an ideal in heaven. Teachings are revealed in the events of history and in scientific experiments and advances.

Thus, Plato's views are significant, for they are the past and they are the present that should be avoided. People need to enter the world bravely, open-mindedly, think, act and grow.

A wonderful read
We read this in my European Art as Politics class and it was very interesting. There is a lot of depth involved. Recommended.

Fascinating ancient treatise on the nature of Love
I've read quite a few pieces of ancient Roman & Greek literature and each time I come away greatly surprised at how these 2000 to 3000-year old cultures were so similar to ours in many ways.Well, Plato's somewhat short dialogue "The Symposium" both re-affirms and counters these past impressions.

"The Symposium" investigates the nature of romantic Love.What is it?From where does it arise?What is the aim of Love?What does it accomplish?

On the one hand, this dialogue asks questions that people today still can't really answer.Modern readers should be able to relate very well to these aspects of the dialogue.It should be noted that most of the viewpoints and opinions presented through several speeches in the dialogue make some sort of sense, but only when Love is thought of as a sentient being that can influence a person's thoughts and actions.Most of us today have been schooled in science and don't perceive Love as a separate entity but rather as a mental condition springing from somewhere in the brain.But overall, the speeches are easy to relate to in the sense of scrutinizing the fundamental nature of Love.

However, where "The Symposium" evinces stark differences with modern culture is with respect to homo-eroticism.So many references are made to homosexuality (including one embarassingly revealing anecdote by Alcibiades about his lover Socrates) that if we consider Plato's work to be representative of the time, then we have to believe that many, if not most, highly educated men in ancient Athens were essentially homosexuals whose relations with their wives were limited to providing for them and fathering children by them.The most convincing support for this is in Aristophanes' and Alcibiades' speeches.

The Penguin edition consists of a superb translation by Christopher Gill.The finale to Agathon's eulogy on Love immediately struck me as remarkable and incredibly well worded, so much so that I had to read it again to admire the use of language.And then imagine my astonishment when a couple paragraphs later Socrates says about Agathon's speech: "The rest was not quite so amazing, but who could fail to be struck by the beauty of language and phrasing at the end?"Clearly, Gill nailed the translation of that passage, and I believe in general too.

A must read for fans of classics!It's short too, well under 100 pages. ... Read more

Product Description
All the writings of Plato generally considered to be authentic are here presented in the only complete one-volume Plato available in English. The editors set out to choose the contents of this collected edition from the work of the best British and American translators of the last 100 years, ranging from Jowett (1871) to scholars of the present day. The volume contains prefatory notes to each dialogue, by Edith Hamilton; an introductory essay on Plato's philosophy and writings, by Huntington Cairns; and a comprehensive index which seeks, by means of cross references, to assist the reader with the philosophical vocabulary of the different translators. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (12)

Good and Bad
First the Good:

This collection includes a wide range of important Platonic dialogues and letters.It is by no means complete, but has enough selection of material to provide the reader a real basis for understanding Plato's thought processes as a whole.The vast majority of dialogues I have found to be of interest are found here.

Now the bad.

I found the language of the translation to be very difficult to get into.In general, a lot of these translations are not only more difficult for the modern reader but they are more difficult than other older translations of Plato's works that I have read. I found it rather difficult to get through this work.

On the whole, I would give the selection 5 stars, and the translation 2 stars.However on the whole, I would give the work a mediocre 3 stars.It may be helpful to fill in some gaps in one's library, but I wouldn't recommend it as a primary Plato text.

PLATO WAS AN UNPARALLELED GENIUS OF THE GREATEST MIND EVER DEVELOPED BY WESTERN CIVILIZATION
The famed British philosopher and mathematician Alfred North Whitehead was a tremendous admirer of the ancient Greek philosopher Plato's cosmically comprehensive thought and great literary writing talent. For the past thirty five years I have immersed myself as an amateur Plato scholar.
Plato is not only vastly deep and abstract but also commonplace and concrete. Alfred North Whitehead stated that he believed "Plato's thought was analogous to a prism whereas various lights reflect different views and hues" and that "there is hardly a thought or insight Plato did not have" and that "Plato more than any one else had a supreme sense of the infinite possibilities of the universe". Whitehead felt Plato intuitively had direct insights into the cosmos. Whitehead believed that the enormousness of Plato's breadth of thought made Plato more right than anyone else in history although sometimes Plato was so very wrong. I would qualify this statement's assessmentwith the observation that the true essence of studying Plato and his student Aristotle is the incredible number of topics and ideas that they scientifically scrutinize. Some evaluators have estimated that Aristotle was fifty percent wrong about all his so-called evidentiary assertions. Perhaps so and perhaps Plato was far more wrong than his zealous worshipper Alfred North Whitehead claimedbut the gist of their thought quest is their overwhelmingly awesome amplitude of contemplativeness. Alfred North Whitehead felt that Plato was far more willing than most individuals to assert that any one of his conclusions on any subject could be wrong. This in itself could have established Plato as being a far more right thinker than most other thinkers in historical time. Whitehead asserted that "what is needed is an immense feeling for things". If you read Plato you will meet the content of your mind. I would addthat Plato was the equal of the greatest writers of all time. His writings are poetical dialogues that compress a stupendous number of ideas into as few words as possible as to how all of space and time have been constructed. While Plato has his feet planted firmly in realism he incessantly interweaves the search for idealism into his thought.
I am a devotee of the cosmologist and process philosopher Alfred North Whitehead and his student-disciple Charles David Hartshorne. The complete dialogues of Plato epitomize the academic subject of Philosophy as not being obscurely pedantic academia promulgated by a bombastic "Professor Pomposity" but readily accessible and a relevant topic to most human beings. The definition of Philosophy is that it is "the critical evaluation of all of the factors of experience" seeking ideality while entrenched in reality. "Philosophy is the attempt to express the infinity of the universe within the limitations of language". "Philosophy should become the ultimate intellectual endeavor". Alfred North Whitehead stated that Plato's thought was "an unrivalled display of the human mind in action, with its ferment of vague obviousness, of hypothetical formulation, of renewed insight, of discovery of relevant detail, of partial understanding, of final conclusion with its disclosure of deeper problems as yet unsolved" and took into account every unexpected novelty, every unanticipated change of direction of the cosmos and that "Plato tried so very hard never to mean anything exactly" always assuming truth may at its very best be only 99.9 (with the decimal nine proceeding ad infinitum) percent accurate. Plato's all-encompassing dialogues are HISTORY'S GREATEST CONVERSATION that span the equilibrium of the most valuable tallest of "tall talk" and the most significant smallest of "small talk". There has been no greater literary writer throughout the history of the world than Plato.
The ancient Greeks had a saying about Plato's thought: "Everywhere I go in my mind I meet Plato coming back". This is no surprise since Plato discussed a staggering number of topics amidst incredibly dazzling language. I concur with Alfred North Whitehead's assessment that "Plato was the unparalleled genius of the greatest mind ever developed by western civilization". Plato was the student of Socrates: "He was the Word, the Brain... he was that Socratesian Superman... strange being from a mighty mental mount who came to earth with intellectual powers far beyond those of mere mortal men. That Socratesian Superman who could bend the word with his bare conversation and stretch the ideal with mighty rivers of thought by persuading people to think that they ought".
Plato's student was Aristotle who created contemporary science, logic and political science. There have been no greater thinkers throughout the history of the world than Socrates, Plato and Aristotle. The ancient Greeks also produced several of the greatest playwrights of all time: Aristophanes, Sophocles, Euripides and Aeschylus. The ancient Greeks begat the physician Hippocrates, the historian Thucydides, the orator Pericles and the poet Homer.The ancient Greeks created the Olympics and western civilization.
The psychoanalytical concept of the UNCONSCIOUS was spoken of in Plato's dialogues over two thousand years before Sigmund Freud. Freud did not become the first person to discover the unconscious. He explored it and refined our knowledge of it.
The concept that the Earth is a globular shaped object with many continents covering it was proven by contemporary satellites but the same idea was propoundedin one of Plato's dialogues 2,400 years ago when Socrates stated "I say to you that the earth is like one of those multi-patched leathern balls".
Several hundred years ago the English physician William Harvey was highly acclaimed for allegedly being the discoverer of the circulation of blood in the human body. However Plato was there first two thousand years before William Harvey when in his dialogue entitled "Timaeus" an individual mentions the circulation of the human body's blood.
Do you think the concept of time travel was first created by H.G. Wells or Jules Verne or Einsteinian physics? No, for the concept of time travel was mentioned in Plato's dialogue "Timaeus".
Do you think the "Law of Conservation of Mass and Energy" in physics was first discovered by Albert Einstein or one of his European predecessor scientists who have lived in the last several hundred years? No, for the concept that mass and energy are interchangeable is found in Plato's dialogue "Timaeus". Albert Einstein and some of his recent antecedent theorizers primarily reaffirmed this concept with observational data and mathematical formulae.
Do you think the concept of the relativity of motion was first discovered in Einsteinian physics? No, for this concept is explored in Plato's dialogue "Parmenides". The dialogue in "Parmenides" receives my vote for the most dazzlingly unusual conversation ever written or spoken. It is similar to Abbott & Costello's classical comedy routine "Who's on First?" but "Parmenides" is ever more dazzling and far more sophisticated and deadly serious knowledge. The dialogue "Parmenides" also encapsulates the rudimentary ideas of the fields of "Set Theory" and "Logic" and "Topology" along with the conceptualization of hyper-dimensions in the space-time continuum.
The poetical playwright William Shakespeare's famous quotation "To be or not to be" is in fact strangely reminiscent of Plato's dialogue "Parmenides" where the philosophical concept of "Being" and "Not Being" are discussed.
Do you think that the continent of North America was first discovered by Christopher Columbus, the Vikings, Saint Brendan of Ireland, etc.? Think again, for a dialogue of Plato's refers to the area on earth which we now recognize as North America.
Do you think the concept of an infinite universe in astronomy is a contemporary invention? Think again, for individuals in Plato's "The Republic" and also in the dialogue "Timaeus" postulate the infinite universe theory.
Do you think the biblical legend of Noah surviving the Great Deluge only exists in the Holy Bible? Think again, for Plato's dialogue "Timaeus" describes a survivor of a great deluge. This legend has also been repeated in numerous other countries' tales. The great Christian apologetical and expository commentary writers throughout history borrowed ideas, imagery, etc. from the ancient Greeks. The famous saying attributed to Jesus Christ "Don't cast your pearls before swine" was uttered in the ancient Greek playwright Aristophanes's play "Lysistrata" four hundred years pre-dating Christ's advent.
Do you think the concept of a broad liberal education was first formulated during Leonardo da Vinci's "Renaissance" era or during the twentieth century? Think again, for Plato outlined the liberal education thesis in his dialogues.
Do you think the concept of Reincarnation was procreated in recent centuries or in ancient Far East religions? Think again, for the concept of Reincarnation is touched upon in Plato's dialogue "Meno" and a few other dialogues.
Do you think the recreational board game of "draughts" or chess or a child's seesaw and a child's toy spinning top were invented within the last several hundred years? Think again, for "draughts" or chess and a seesaw are mentioned in Plato's "Laws" anda child's toy spinning top is mentioned in Plato's "The Republic".
Do you think the concept of a "model city" or "model utopianary community" was first devised by the city of Columbia, Maryland or B.F. Skinner's "Walden Two"? Think again, for Plato developed this concept
in his book "The Republic" and also in his dialogue "Laws".
Do you think the witty sayings "Handsome is as handsome does" and "Higgledy Piggledy" were coined by literary writers in the last several hundred years? Think again, for Plato incorporated these phrases in his writings.
From the above you can see that in a sense there is truly "nothing new under the sun" for Plato in his own way arrived there first!

"Discovering things that might also be remembered". Good Book
Plato and Socrates Dialogues stand on their own andin a short review attempt to say that they are "good or not worth it" seems a little shallow.

The chapter Gorgias it reaches out and offers some direction. It says "This is the truth of the matter, as you will acknowledge if you abandon philosophy and move on to more important things is perhaps that philosophy is no doubt a delightful thing, Socrates, as long as one is exposed to it in moderation at the appropriate time in life. But if one spends more time with it than he should, it's his undoing.

So maybe it is just a delightful book if you like Plato and Socrates. It is nice to have this all in one book. I recommend it.

Reading all of the dialogues develops thoughts on specific themes best. It helps to have them in this format. I especially like the to follow the question of whether knowledge is discovered or remembered, whether justice is absolute or relative, whether virtue can be taught, and of course a great deal more in these chapters.

It brings together enough to find out what Plato's epistemology is and how his ethics relates to his metaphysical theory. Lots more.

I found the chapter overviews useful. It pointed the way that the chapters would take and suggested some core issues but didn't pretend to have been answers than the chapters themselves did.

A book like this is a better way to own and read "The Collected Dialogues"

This is the wrong collection to buy.
You could do worse than to buy this collection -- after all, there are translations of the complete works of Plato into English that date to the 18th century.But you could sure do a whole lot better.

By and large -- and with the exception, perhaps, of what is now the standard translation of Laws -- modern translations of Plato are more evenhanded, better researched, and more frank than old ones.And this edition, unfortunately, has some very old ones indeed, like those of Jowett.Moreover, it includes -- according to no particular logic -- a few works many consider spurious, while omitting others whose status is in debate, and it places the dialogues in an order that is not easy to justify.

The edition to buy, if you want a complete Plato without the benefit of the Greek text (if you want the Greek, buy the Loeb, and know that the facing-pages English translations aren't much worse than the ones offered here!), is the one edited by Cooper and published by Hackett.This one will suffice -- but that one is excellent.Few instructors will insist that you buy some edition in particular, and fewer still will insist that you buy this edition -- so don't, buy that one.

it's better than...
As if after reading Plotinus, Augustine and all those Arabian philosophers with those names one can never recall, we needed another commentary on the works of Plato. Cela va de soi (it goes without saying), Plato has been remembered for a reason. Although, there are some philosophers who would consider Plato a mistake (Quine for example, if I remember rightly, refused to teach a class on Plato), I think it would be absurd not to consider Plato at all. There are some dialogues in this book (such as the Timaeus) that will make you yawn, others, like Gorgias, the Symposium and the Laws will make you wide-awake in wonder. But most importantly, these dialogues will introduce you to Socrates. Although, there is no way to ascertain whether it was Plato or Socrates speaking in these dialogues, most assume that in The Apology, The Crito and a few of Plato's other early dialouges, one gets a glimpse of the real Socrates. Socrates, in Plato's (and also Xenophanes) dialouges is a good man, one who will inspire you. He'll teach you the advantages of being open-minded, of realizing human ignorance, and above all, self-knowledge ('know thyself', 'the unexamined life is a life not worth living'). Which, in my opinion, makes Plato worth reading. I would encourage you to read these dialogues and take what you can, and then go on to Aristotle.

Also recommended: Toilet: The Novel, by Michael Szymczyk. The Oxford Companion to Philosophy. The Complete Works of Aristotle. Early Greek Philosophy by Jonathan Barnes. Lives of Eminent Philosophers by Diogenes Laertius.

... Read more

Product Description

If you're facing a dilemma -- whether it's handling a relationship, living ethically, dealing with a career change, or finding meaning in life -- the world's most important thinkers from centuries past will help guide you toward a solution compatible with your individual beliefs. From Kirkegaard's thoughts on coping with death to the I Ching's guidelines on adapting to change, Plato, Not Prozac! makes philosophy accessible and shows you how to use it to solve your everyday problems.

Gone is the need for expensive therapists, medication, and lengthy analysis. Clearly organized by common problems to help you tailor Dr. Lou Marinoff's advice to your own needs, this is an intelligent, effective, and persuasive prescription for self-healing therapy that is giving psychotherapy a run for its money.

Customer Reviews (33)

Another useful one
Again, the author simplify things in a way that one can use it in solving daily common issues.

Easy read
Good book. Easy read with thoughtful insight. Maybe to simplistic at times. Had to read alot to get to the "meat" of the book but will probably continue to refer back to it at times.

Philosophy as a Practical Problem Solving Tool
Before the onset of psychoanalysis and psychotherapy, people with problems tended to use two approaches: what to us may be the bizarre, like witch doctors for example, or, philosophy.In the 1990's, philosophers began to reclaim their former territory by providing philosophical counseling, or the use of philisophy to help clients solve problems of everyday living.Where therapy and analysis fall short, claims Lou Marinoff, philosophy can come in and save the day.He provides a general overview of the major philosophers and their beliefs and teachings, from Socrates to Buddha to Descartes, Leibniz, etc, and then provides case studies of how philosophical counselors helped various clients address a variety of life's problems, from relationship, to job, to broader moral issues.Marinoff makes a convincing case, via his PEACE approach - Probelm Identification, Emotions, Analysis, Contemplation and Equilibrium - that philosophy can indeed help people address problems.

Although I was originally disconcerted by the cafeteria approach to selecting philosophies and applying them to specific problems (not only fit the problem but the particular individual personality), I realized that in actuality this is how we problem solve anyway, to a great extent.That is, someone from a Juedo-Christian tradition sometimes veers off their orthodox path by applying a philosophical principle from another tradition - Buddhism or Stoicism, for example - to address a problem.This, of course, except with certain exceptions, is not a refutation of that person's value system or belief, but more a reflection that no such systems can function in each and every life circumstance.

This book serves as an introduction to the major schools of philosophy and provides a starter kit for using philosophy to solve everyday issues.However, for full results, I think one would need to delve more deeply into the various philosophers or their teachings, participate in a philosophy discussion group, or hire a philosphical counselor.

Plato Not Prozac!
This book is great. I am reading it the second time. I had so many aha moments. You just need to take your time reading and thinking about what you read.

Refreshing approach - Common sense mixed with Wisdom
How can one ignore the wisdom that was given to us by so many philosophers!This book was an excellent "review" of the philosophies I studied decades ago but never thought to incorporate into present day living.At the time they seemed so lofty and inappropriate, but I was also young then.There is tremendous value in them - all of them - choose your own - WONDERFUL book you'll read more than once! ... Read more

Product Description
Widely adopted for classroom use, this book offers translations of four major works of ancient Greek literature which treat the life and thought of Socrates, focusing particularly on his trial and defense (the platonic dialogues Euthyphro, Apology of Socrates, and Crito) and on the charges against Socrates (Aristophanes' comedy Clouds). This is the only collection of the three Platonic dialogues that also includes Clouds, a work that is fundamental for understanding the thought of Socrates in relation to the Athenian political community and to Greek poetry.

Thomas G. West's introduction provides an overview of the principal themes and arguments of the four works. There are extensive explanatory notes to the translations. For this new edition, Thomas West has revised the introduction and updated the annotated bibliography, which includes the best of the secondary literature on Socrates and on the texts included in this book.

In their translations, the Wests capture successfully the simplicity and vigor of straightforward Greek diction. They strive for as high a degree of accuracy as possible, subordinating concerns for elegance and smoothness to the goal of producing the most faithful and most reliable English versions of these texts. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (8)

I never got my book!
This person is fake and never sent my book!! Dont buy from this person. Amazon doesnt even have an accurate email on file so there is no way to contact them.

a question
I am very interested in reading Plato in a way that is as close to the original. Unfortunately I don't read ancient gtreek.

So I have a question:

here is the translation provided in this book of a famous passage:

"For there is no human being who will preserve his life if he genuinely opposes either you or any other multitude and prevents many unjust and unlawful things from happening in the city"

here is the translation from Benjamin Jowett
"no man who goes to war with you or any other multitude, honestly striving against the many lawless and unrighteous deeds which are done in a state, will save his life"

now I don't care about whether one is more readable than the other, etc

what I care are answer to the following questions that I would be most grateful to get:
1) is the original speaking of "city" or "state"?
2) which verbal expression is closest to what was originally written: "oppose" or "going to war by honestly striving" ?
3)which expressions is closer to the original: is it "unjust and unlawful things" or "lawless and unrighteous"? Is unrighteous right? wasn't it writtent unjust?

You see i am caring about the translated sentence being as close as possible to the original economy (order of words, structure of the sentence, use of one verb when one was used, etc).

Can someone help me assess whether this translation fit with my goal?

Good Translation, Great Dialogues
Having compared this translation with 4 or 5 other translations and with the Greek, I was most pleased with the Plato and less pleased with the Aristophanes.

The Plato texts are accurate and readable, and the prose is even and flowing. They portray the final conversations with Socrates before his execution. The texts are rich with topics for conversation and hold many curiosities when compared with the other Socratic dialogues.

The Aristophanes was accurate, but at times I felt it was censored compared to several of the other translations; not censored in content, but in word choice. This translation uses the less harsh terms for what some of the other translations use. You may find this to be tasteful or dampening to the humor, its a matter of preference, but it is something to be aware of.

In all a great translation of great dialogues and hilarious criticism.

Disastrous, nauseating, incompetent translations. How does work this bad get published?
Before marking 'not useful' please look up the word 'useful' in the dictionary, people!

Never in my life have I been so outraged by what I have read as by the drivel spouted by Dr. West in this book (in his Translator's Note), and by the use of `unponderingly' and "the Thinkery" (among other things) in his translation of The Clouds. I also read his translation of Plato's Apology of Socrates, and found it grossly inferior to Jowett.

Four Texts on Socrates is not a book to be tossed aside lightly: it should be hurled with great force. (Apologies to Dorothy Parker.)

Not only are the translations themselves inexcusably inept, almost everything that he writes in his Translator's Note is wrong.

"The Clouds" is a play, not a scientific or mathematical treatise. As such, it has characters and dialogue. A 'modern' translation of a play must be something that could be presented on a stage and make sense to a 'modern' audience. If a character is supposed to be bizarre or out of the ordinary, one does not make him spout drivel such as 'unponderingly'; one gives him a 'shtick', which is a theatrical term. It's more or less a running gag associated with a particular character. You create, through clever ways of speaking or odd ways of stringing his words together, a characterization. He could be made to speak like a parody of William F. Buckley or the Star Wars character Yoda. As it stands, West's text cannot be presented as a play.

It is neither necessary nor useful to coin such nonsense as 'unponderingly'; indeed, it is inexcusable. It conveys neither humor nor cleverness. It comes off simply as stupid. The translator of a play must know something about theatre and drawing characters, which Dr. West obviously does not. To state it bluntly: The translation of plays should be left to people who understand theatre and characterization, and who are creative. Dr. West doesn't have a creative bone in his body.

In regard to his translation of Plato's The Apology of Socrates, the translation by Dr. West is both original and good, but the parts that are good are not original, and the parts that are original are not good. After all, when one has the work of such a brilliant predecessor as Benjamin Jowett to follow, the temptation to do something entirely different is strong. But it must be resisted. If Dr. West had merely lightly revised Jowett's great work, he would have made a contribution to learning. Alas, he did neither.

The version by Jowett is clearly superior. Here is a short excerpt:

"And I must beg of you to grant me a favor: If I defend myself in my accustomed manner, and you hear me using the words which I have been in the habit of using in the agora, at the tables of the money-changers, or anywhere else, I would ask you not to be surprised, and not to interrupt me on this account. For I am more than seventy years of age, and appearing now for the first time in a court of law, I am quite a stranger to the language of the place; and therefore I would have you regard me as if I were really a stranger, whom you would accuse if he spoke in his native tongue, and after the fashion of his country: Am I making an unfair request of you? Never mind the manner, which may or may not be good; but think only of the truth of my words, and give heed to that: let the speaker speak truly and the judge decide justly."

Compare West's inept version:

"...I do very much beg and beseech this of you: if you hear me speaking in my defense with the same speeches I am accustomed to speak both in the marketplace at the money-tables, where many of you have heard me, and elsewhere, do not wonder or make a disturbance because of this. For this is how it is: now is the first time I have come before a law court, at the age of seventy; hence I am simply foreign to the manner of speech here. So just as, if I really did happen to be a foreigner, you would surely sympathize with me if I spoke in the dialect and way in which I was raised, so also I do beg of you now (and it is just, at least, as it seems to me): leave aside the manner of my speech--for perhaps it may be worse, but perhaps better--and instead consider this very thing and apply your mind to this: whether the things I say are just or not. For this is the virtue of a judge, while that of an orator is to speak the truth."

"Speaking...with the same speeches I am accustomed to speak"? How utterly inept and repetitive! Didn't he even proof-read? One doesn't speak with 'speeches', one speaks with words!

West also uses "virtue" in "virtue of a judge" quite inappropriately. Obviously, he is translating some Greek word in a rigid manner to show that the same Greek word was used as in another place. But "virtue of a judge" (or "virtue of an orator") is not idiomatic English. We don't use "virtue" that way in English, ever. West is simply wrong here. The meaning of "virtue" precludes its being used in this manner.

It is obvious that Dr. West never read his version aloud as a test of its appropriateness, which is surprising, because this work is supposed to be a speech. Dr. West's version is clearly not suited to speaking aloud, whereas Jowett's is. In West's translation, Socrates is a clumsy, repetitive, and inept speaker. Needlessly so. If you want to read a good translation, see Jowett's 3rd edition (1892).

If Socrates is to speak English, let it be the King's English, or not at all.

Why does Dr. West believe himself qualified to make translations? Nothing in his work suggests that he is competent in any way to do so. This is not the work of a scholar, but that of a bungling hack. These translations are travesties. How does work this nauseatingly bad get published?

NOT RECOMMENDED

A Great Help for Teachers
This is an outstanding translation of these Greek texts.These are texts that many of us regularly teach in introductory classes, and it is a great help to have such a reliable translation: the translation is clear and accessible, but maintains an unusually strict adherence to the form of the original Greek.This makes it useful for advanced study as well.The running footnotes to the text are especially helpful for giving students the relevant points of historical and legal context for understanding Socrates's position, but they are sparse enough that they do not intrude in the interpretation of the text.This is the only translation of these texts that I will use in my courses. ... Read more

Product Description
Plato (428/427 BC-348/347 BC), whose original name was Aristocles, was an ancient Greek philosopher, the second of the great trio of ancient Greeks - succeeding Socrates and preceding Aristotle - who between them laid the philosophical foundations of Western culture. Plato was also a mathematician, writer of philosophical dialogues, and founder of the Academy in Athens, the first institution of higher learning in the western world. Plato is widely believed to have been a student of Socrates and to have been deeply influenced by his teacher's unjust death. Plato's brilliance as a writer and thinker can be witnessed by reading his Socratic dialogues. Some of the dialogues, letters, and other works that are ascribed to him are considered spurious. Plato is thought to have lectured at the Academy, although the pedagogical function of his dialogues, if any, is not known with certainty. They have historically been used to teach philosophy, logic, rhetoric, mathematics, and other subjects about which he wrote. ... Read more

Product Description
This is a completely new translation of one of the great works of Western political thought.In addition to Tom Griffith's vivid, dignified and accurate rendition of Plato's text, this edition is suitable for students at all levels. It contains an introduction that assesses the cultural background to the Republic, its place within political philosophy, and its general argument; succinct notes in the text; an analytical summary of content; a full glossary of proper names; a chronology of important events; and a guide to further reading. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (3)

Very happy customer
Thank you so much for the quick delivery of this book. It was in excellent condition.

The ultimate Socratic dialogue?
"The Republic" is Plato's classical utopia, and perhaps one of the most controversial political texts ever written. It's so absurd that some people deny that Plato really meant it! Strange Aristotle never noticed. And yet, those who believe that "The Republic" shouldn't be taken literally probably have a point. Plato himself didn't take "The Republic" absolutely literally either.

"The Republic" describes a hierarchical caste society ruled by a militarized, collectivist elite. The elite itself is divided into different segments, the highest echelon being that of the philosopher-kings, enlightened thinkers who contemplate the heavenly world of Platonic forms, and precisely for that reason are fit to rule society as well. Below the philosopher-kings stand the Guardians, essentially the military caste. Famously, both the philosophers and Guardians live under conditions of total communism. They own no private property, are reared together, and hence don't know their parents or siblings. Strictly speaking, there are philosopher-queens as well, and also female soldiers, since the elite has gender equality (a point that has puzzled modern feminists). Below the elite groups stand merchants, artisans and farmers, but no slaves. The castes are (almost) hereditary, eugenics are used to ensure the fitness of the elite groups, and the population is induced to believe in fantastic, religious myths. The myths are noble lies welding this strange society together. Did I leave something out? Oh, and the poets are banished from the city! In other words, the ideal society described in "The Republic" looks like a curious blend of Sparta, Egypt and India (at least the two former societies would have been known to Plato).

So where do we go from here? The most moderate interpretation is that although Plato did regard "The Republic" as the best society, he didn't really believe that such a society was possible. It was a deliberate utopia. This raises a lot ofintriguing questions, such as how Plato imagined the best *possible* society to look like, or what function "The Republic" was supposed to have. The first question is to some extent answered in "The Laws" and the Seventh Epistle, where Plato advocates a mixed constitution. What the answer to the second question might be, I honestly don't know. Perhaps nobody does. A wild guess: the point of Plato's utopia was to explore certain ideas without hindrance, throw certain concepts into as sharp relief as possible, in other words, do exactly what modern utopian novels do, in contrast to political utopias meant to be taken seriously.

I think that Plato clearly saw both the dilemma of democracy, and the dilemmas of tyranny and oligarchy, what we would simply call "dictatorship". Plato saw his teacher Socrates being persecuted by the regime of the Thirty Tyrants, but he also saw him being executed by the demos. The twin dilemmas of both dictatorship and democracy were starkly visible in the life of Socrates. The perennial problem of democracy is: what happens if the people vote the wrong way? (In Athens, the problem was even more pronounced, since many positions were filled by lot!) The perennial problem of dictatorship: how do we stop a ruler from becoming a tyrant, if the people can't even vote? Plato's solution to the problem was to balance the demos and the elite by a mixed constitution. In "The Laws" he took Sparta and the Cretan city-states as his concrete models, but he might just as well have harkened back to the days of Solon, or made use of the systems in Carthage or Republican Rome.

Plato's concrete solutions aren't ours, of course. Even the Athenian democracy he criticized was a far cry from our modern conceptions of democracy. From our vantage point, a mixed constitution on a Spartan or Cretan model actually looks even worse than the Athenian system. Note also the irony that "The Laws" lack the "socialist" and "feminist" traits of the Platonic utopia. Also, there is slavery in Magnesia, the name given by Plato to his realistic Cretan city-state, while there doesn't seem to be any slaves in "The Republic". And yet, despite the obvious differences between Plato's time and ours, the dilemma is still with us! Modern democracies attempt to solve it by combining universal suffrage with a division of powers, by a federal structure, or by a strong constitution guaranteeing basic human rights, a constitution that cannot be changed, at least not by a simple majority. Our methods may be different from the Platonic ones, but we are still trying to solve the same dilemma as he experienced in the aftermath of the Peloponessian War.

It could further be argued that no clever constitutional solution is possible in the long run, if the citizens loose their sense of civic duty. And it further seems that civic duty is possible only in a relatively small state, without too large income or property differentials between the citizens. Indeed, even Plato's moderate city-state in "The Laws" insists on the citizens having roughly equal amounts of landed property, property that can be neither bought nor sold.Of course, our concept of citizenship is much broader than the Platonic one: women and even resident aliens are citizens, and there are no slaves. Yet, Plato's general point seems to be correct.

So far, I have only touched on those points in "The Republic" and "The Laws" that could be creatively developed without offending our modern sensibilities too much.But, of course, "The Republic" also deals with other issues, more disturbing ones to our liberal ears. Are people really born equal? Are there innate differences between individuals? Is it always permissible for the rulers to tell the truth? Do societies need myths and noble lies? Ironically, Plato also asked questions that should disturb some conservatives: Given that innate differences are individual rather than sex-related, does this mean that the sexes are equal? And what's so good about private property and foreign trade anyway?

Perhaps that's the main function played by "The Republic". It's a work of provocation, a work meant to shock us into boldly questioning our preconceptions, a work that's the very opposite of a noble lie. Pace Popper, "The Republic" might actually be Plato's most Socratic work!

[This isn't really a review of this particular edition, but a general comment on Plato's dialogue, and its relation to some other works, but placing it here felt like the most natural option.]

Understand the strengths and weaknesses of the Griffith translation
This version of the Republic (translated by Tom Griffith) is pleasant and readable; it definitely has its moments and would probably be a good way to first encounter the dialogue. But do not use it for serious study, since the translation can be quite free and sometimes confusing. For instance, the word usually translated as "advantageous" (sumpheron) in Thrasymachus's argument is rendered as "good for." This is a nice attempt to capture the meaning in a natural way - but I personally wouldn't play around with the word "good" in a translation of the Republic. ... Read more

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Plato's dialogs about the Atlantis. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (12)

Timaeus and Critias
Excellent book. Since I've been reading many books about Atlantis and Lemuria and attending the Ancient Mysteries Conferences at Association of Research and Enlightenment (Edgar Cayce), I was interested in reading Plato's version of Atlantis which seems to be from what much of the insights are gleaned, as well as from Edgar Cayce's psychic readings. Again, an excellent source for those interested in Ancient times.

Atlantis, Ancient Athens, and a Single God-creator
Atlantis. That is what most people are familiar with, from this ancient tale.

If one reads carefully, it is easy to tell that this is a fictious work by plato, perhaps with real historic connections. We call such a piece today a historic-fiction, so that would make Timaeus and Critias from Penguin Classics, ancient-fiction.

But Atlantis is not the real focus of the work. The real focus is the ancient civilization of Athens. The story provides respectful details of Atlantis because, according to the story, Atlania attacks Athens in an all out invasion. Athens, however, prevails.

There are some who would argue that Plato is not refering to the real atlatic ocean because of an island in the south of Greece that seams to fit the details. The problem is that Plato makes a very distinct description: Atlania had a dominating power over much of the world, including a reference to a land far across the ocean, including all of North Africa. That would make Atlantis a very powerful nation indeed.

If there was rivalry between Athens and Atlantis, as described in Plato, then they could not both have existed so close as being on the same continent and have Atlantis gain such strength.

So, either Atlantis is a fiction in totality (a very real possibility that can be seen in the story's set up) or is a myth that is based on a great deal of truth.

How many gods did Greece believe in? I don't know, but even the ancient greeks believed that there was ONE God who made the whole of the universe. Then God made Kronos, who then made the lessor Gods such as Athena and Atlas (the father of Zeus). Plato details all this in the first part of the book, referred to as Timaeus.

I recommend this to anyone who is interested in the Atlantis impact on our modern day world.

Great Work, Insightful Commentary
I enjoyed this translation as well as the translator's commentary, found in an introduction to Timaeus and an appendix on Atlantis.I thought these sections were quite valuable and added greatly to the utility of this work in translation.

Timaeus picks up in many ways where Republic left off (not quite right, but close) with Socrates recapping the basic ideas of an ideal society.The question is then posed:Would such an ideal society work?How would it work?What would it be like?A short interlude relating to a myth of Atlantis is presented and then the dialog moves on.

The substance of Timaeus then follows which is an attempt to dissect the universe, the soul, and the human body.Plato's theories here are clearly related to Pythagorean thought, however I found them interesting on a number of grounds:

1)His solution to matter is to create large geometric patterns out of atomic particles of air, fire, water, and earth.In this way, he seems to offer a precursor to modern atomic theory.

2)There are elements of his ideas of the creation of the human body which seem to be interesting when compared to various traditional Indo-European healing charms, from the Vedas through Middle High German charms.There is a definite order radiating out, and it may be that Plato's work here may actually advance our understanding of Indo-European traditional concepts of the body.

3)His idea of the role of astrology is far more refined and sophisticated than most advocacy of the topic either in modern times or the ancient world (he suggests that the purpose of human sight is actually to study astrology, that we may better understand ourselves, but this occurs within a fairly sophisticated framework).

All in all, Timaeus is an extremely important document to read to understand the history of ideas in Europe.

The second dialog expands on the Atlantis story.While Critias is but a fragment so we don't really know how the story is supposed to go, the idea is clear-- the dialog will show a working Republic-stye society in war against an outside force (the Atlanteans) who because they are more sophisticated socially will win but that there will be catastrophes which destroy Atlantis and nearly destroy the protagonists:a primitive and mythical Athens.

The introduction provides a great deal of insight into restraints of empirical inquiry in Plato's day and helps explain many of the discrepancies between modern science and Plato's ideas in Timaeus.It offers the right set of questions and insight to help the reader frame the work more clearly.Similarly the appendix on Atlantis provides information relating to possible and hypothetical source material that Plato could have used, as well as information on the history of the great Atlantis debates.Both these sections are also well worth reading.

This is a great rendition of an important set of classics, with added insight supplied by the translator.I heartily recommend it to anyone.

The first attempt to systematically explain the universe
Plato's Timaeus is a dialogue (more like a speech actually, since Timaeus talks uninterrupted for the last 100 pages or so) which is his explanation of the nature and purpose of the universe.He decides that a supreme being (termed God, but not the same as the Christian or Judaistic God, as he is neither omniscient nor immanent.He is there but he is silent.) created the universe.It was not creation ex nihilo, but rather he used some already existing material, a plasticy substance upon which the ideal Forms can be imprinted.So, this God thought of the Forms, then created the physical universe by imprinting said Forms upon the "recepticle of being."Thus the physical universe is imperfect because the recepticle can not perfectly imitate the Forms.

Plato also discusses the makeup of the universe, and unfortunately he is often so incorrect as to not even be worth reading, other than as historical background to other developments.For example, he goes on for a long while about how all mater is made of triangles.Or later he discusses the interchangability of fire, water, earth, and air.

Though many parts of the Timaeus are not especially helpful, there are many parts which are greatly important to understanding ancient thought, both of Plato's time and that of those who were greatly influenced by him, especially Augustine.

The Critas is an unfinished dialogue, the sequel to the Timaeus, in which Plato does not get past a preliminary discussion of an ancient civilization which was supossed to be analyzed in this dialogue.The reason that this dialogue is read (besides being a work of Plato) is that this ancient civilization is Atlantis.It is in this book that we have the first mention of that mythical island.In the dialogue it is claimed that the famed Salon brought the tale to Greece, and that he had learned it from the Egyptians.It is debated whether Plato believed in Atlantis, or whether he invented it to illustrate his point in the dialogue.In either case, it is an interesting read.

Overall grade: A

First Appearance Of Atlantis In Literature
I'm not sure why Plato ever became so famous based on this book.
He states as fact things that are only conjecture really.

It makes basically no sense at all based on what we now know about modern science, the human body, etc..

But then Plato didn't have access to all that we know now.In that sense it can be interesting to see how someone tried to apply simple ideas to explain everything.

And he does try to explain everything in this short book from the creation of the universe to the creation of the human body.

However the information about Atlantis is fascinating.In that part of the book it appears to me that Plato really is stating facts but yet that is the part that many people (including the author of the appendix) say is science fiction.

To say that mythology including the story of Atlantis is science fiction is "highly unphilosophical, nay rediculous"

(Poseidon: A Link Between Semite, Hamite, and Aryan (Paperback)
by Robert Brown ).

Or people like this guy try to explain mythology by relating it to more conventional places, events, etc.. where it doesn't fit at all.That's because they don't understand mythology is talking about metaphysical and supernatural events.

Yes Atlantis was a real place.It was a super race that started I guess about 50,000 years ago and was light years ahead of our current society.Many people today are experiencing past life memories about Atlantis where they see the amazing crystal technology, genetic engineering, time travel, etc..

With all the controversy about evolution versus creationism Plato provides some assistance:

"Birds were produced by a process of transformation, growing feathers instead of hair, from harmless, empty-headed men, who were interested in the heavens but were silly enough to think that visible evidence is all the foundation astronomy needs."

"Land animals came from men who had no use of philosophy... while their skulls were elongated into various shapes as a result of the crushing of their circles.And the reason some have four feet and others many was that the stupider they were the more supports god gave them, to tie them more closely to earth."

"But the most unintelligent and ignorant of all turned into the fourth kind of creature that lives in water... their makers thought them unfit to breathe pure clean air, and made them inhale water, into whose turbid depths they plunged them."

Poseidon: A Link Between Semite, Hamite, and Aryan

The Mystery of the Crystal Skulls: Unlocking the Secrets of the Past, Present, and Future

The Secret Teachings of All Ages (Reader's Edition)

Edgar Cayce's Atlantis and Lemuria: The Lost Civilizations in the Light of Modern Discoveries

Edgar Cayce's Egypt: Psychic Revelations on the Most Fascinating Civilization Ever Known

Initiation

Initiation in the Great Pyramid (Astara's Library of Mystical Classics)
... Read more

Product Description
In his celebrated masterpiece, Symposium, Plato imagines a high-society dinner-party in Athens in 416 BC. The guests--including the comic poet Aristophanes and Plato's mentor Socrates--each deliver a short speech in praise of love. The sequence of dazzling speeches culminates in Socrates' famous account of the views of Diotima, a prophetess who taught him that love is our means of trying to attain goodness, and a brilliant sketch of Socrates himself by a drunken Alcibiades, the most popular and notorious Athenian of the time. Engaging the reader on every page, this new translation conveys the power, humor, and pathos of Plato's creation and is complemented by full explanatory notes and an illuminating introduction. ... Read more

Product Description
The revised edition of this popular textbook features revised vocabulary and grammatical notes that now appear on the same page as the text, sentence diagrams, principal parts of verbs listed both by Stephanus page and alphabetically, word frequency list for words occurring more than twice, and complete vocabulary.

Also available:

Meleager: The Poems - ISBN 0865162549
Asclepiades of Samos and Leonidas of Tarentum: The Poems - ISBN 0865164568

For over 30 years Bolchazy-Carducci Publishers has produced the highest quality Latin and ancient Greek books. From Dr. Seuss books in Latin to Plato's Apology, Bolchazy-Carducci's titles help readers learn about ancient Rome and Greece; the Latin and ancient Greek languages are alive and well with titles like Cicero's De Amicitia and Kaegi's Greek Grammar. We also feature a line of contemporary eastern European and WWII books.

Some of the areas we publish in include:

Selections From The Aeneid
Latin Grammar & Pronunciation
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Texts Supporting Wheelock's Latin
Classical author workbooks: Vergil, Ovid, Horace, Catullus, Cicero
Vocabulary Cards For AP Selections: Vergil, Ovid, Catullus, Horace
Greek Mythology
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Customer Reviews (4)

A remarkable story of the death of a remarkable man
The philosopher Plato, born in 427 BCE narrates the trial and death of his seventy year old teacher Socrates in 399 BCE in Athens, Greece in four of his dialogues. Socrates was accused of impiety and of corrupting the youth. The general consensus among today's historians and scholars is that Socrates was innocent of the charges against him. However, the citizens of Athens felt differently during his time. Socrates was found guilty, was imprisoned, was able to meet with and talk with his friends before his death, and died by drinking hemlock given to him by his executioner.

Plato presents Socrates' defense of himself, which is quite persuasive. We will focus on one item: Socrates' reactions to his impending death. It is one of several early discussions about death.

The Apology reports Socrates thought about life after death and Phaedo quotes his last words. Both show his courage and fine character.

In The Apology, Socrates' friends are surprised that he is taking his impending death so calmly. One friend asks him what he thinks happens to people after their death. Socrates admits that he does not know, but sees two possibilities: either there is no afterworld or there is one. If there is no afterworld, there is nothing to worry about. Death will be like a dreamless sleep. Even the riches people on earth, who have all kinds of possessions and enjoy all kinds of activities and pleasures, delight in an undisturbed sleep. If, on the other hand, there is an afterlife, there is again no concern. The dead will enjoy meeting acquaintances and heroes of old; it will be a truly enjoyable and learning experience. Understanding this, he explained, he had no need to fear death; on the contrary, either way, there will be nothing bad after death.

Phaedo shows that Socrates did not change his mood or mind. He drinks the Hemlock and dies slowly, very calm, very accepting. He feels that he has lived a good life and is satisfied. As Socrates is about to die, this man who had been charged with corrupting the youth of Athens and of being impious, turns to his friend Crito and says, "Crito, we owe a cock to Aesculapius. Pay it and do not neglect it." These were his last words.

Phaedo end with a lamenting, but congratulatory comment by the person narrating the story, "Such was the end, Echecrates, of our friend, who was, as we may say, of all those of his time whom we have known, the best and wisest and most righteous man."

Great translation, a must read as it is really short
Usual amazing Plato-ness. The preface to this has a detailed discussion of how Plato makes Socrates seem a bit "Superior". I agree as this is a dialectic challenge, i.e. creating a speech of one's own defense that doesn't result in a person being "defensive" or at the very least outraged at false accusations.I found his discussion on politics and justice or righteousness to be fascinatingly timeless.

standard school text of the Apology
This textbook has much to recommend it.I used it this year in an advanced high school Greek course and know of no textbook either in or out of print that is more helpful.As a practical matter, it supersedes all earlier editions, most of which fail to meets the needs of current students.

The text contains a complete vocabulary.Each page of Greek text is accompanied by extensive notes on the facing page (along with translations of words that appear infrequently).While the Apology is often labeled an "intermediate" Greek text, it features many challenging constructions, including (to cite only a few) prolepsis, anacoluthon, attraction, and frequent ellipses.Intermediate Greek students cannot possibly unravel these syntactical knots without useful explanatory notes.Helm's comments are crisp and on point.Nor does he co-opt the student's task of translating.

Also included are references to more detailed treatments of grammatical points found in Herbert Weir Smyth's monumental "Greek Grammar."There are useful appendices, one with diagrams of several long and complicated sentences, another containing principal parts of key verbs found in the work.Overall, the notes are directed to the student who is coming to the text of the Apology for the first time.

My only quibble with this textbook is the Greek font, which I do not find especially appealing.I much prefer the Porson font found in the Bryn Mawr commentary of the same work.

As for the Apology itself, it is one of the great masterworks of Greek literature.To read it in Greek is an education in itself.An ancient commentator insightfully pointed out that the work is really four things: 1)a defense speech proper; 2) a counter-indictment of the Athenian people; 3) a portrait of Socrates the man; and 4) a depiction of the ideal philosopher.It truly is each of these things, and the brilliance of Plato's achievement lies in his simultaneous handling of these different aims.

The speech can be approached from a range of perspectives.In the very least it is a fascinating study in Athenian legal procedure (Socrates was tried by a jury of 500 Athenian citizens), where judges and lawyers played no role in the trial and jurors were largely free to interpret the charge however they wished.The speech also must be situated in its historical context, namely, the end of the Peloponnesian War, the rule of the Thirty Tyrants, and the restoration of the Athenian democracy.The way in which the traditional morality of Athens was challenged by the sophists must also be considered closely for a full understanding of the speech.

Some have argued that Socrates did a poor job of defending himself. Certainly there are passages where, rather then defending himself, he condemns the Athenians for failing to tend to their own souls and warns them in no uncertain terms that they will only be the worse for executing him.In the end, the speech is extraordinarily moving in its depiction of Socrates' unflinching moral courage and absolute devotion to his philosophical mission.

An Excellent Manual for Reading Plato's Original Text
This book was wonderfully organized for those who would like to read ancient Greek texts. We can read Plato's Apology without looking up the Greek dictionary. In the appendices, some Sentence Diagrams,table of thetense of the verbs of the Principal Parts, Word Frequency List, and theVocabulary List were provided. ... Read more

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Plato's frontal attack on poetry has always been a problem for sympathetic students, who have often minimized or avoided it. Beginning with the premise that the attack must be taken seriously, Mr. Havelock shows that Plato's hostility is explained by the continued domination of the poetic tradition in contemporary Greek thought.

The reason for the dominance of this tradition was technological. In a nonliterate culture, stored experience necessary to cultural stability had to be preserved as poetry in order to be memorized. Plato attacks poets, particularly Homer, as the sole source of Greek moral and technical instruction--Mr. Havelock shows how the Illiad acted as an oral encyclopedia. Under the label of mimesis, Plato condemns the poetic process of emotional identification and the necessity of presenting content as a series of specific images in a continued narrative.

The second part of the book discusses the Platonic Forms as an aspect of an increasingly rational culture. Literate Greece demanded, instead of poetic discourse, a vocabulary and a sentence structure both abstract and explicit in which experience could be described normatively and analytically: in short a language of ethics and science.

Customer Reviews (2)

Plato would substitute reason for emotionalism
Frequently I receive comments via the Internet some of which prove to be of value.One such was the Class of 2000/2002 that points out that these graduates have very little direct knowledge of even their recent past.It only proves that if they are to be enculturated, they must first be taught.In Plato's day, the means was by oral transmission, the effect of which was to perpetuate what might not be true."Memesis," the total act of representation, that part of of our individual consciousness to which it is designed to appeal, is the area of the non-rational, of the pathological emotions, the unbridled and fluctuating sentiments with which we feel but never think. It is the affect imagery of emotion that hits us directly in the gut before being filtered through the brain, there to be digested before accepted. When indulged in this way emotion weakens and destroys that rational faculty in which alone lies hope of personal salvation and scientific assurance.Memesis is the "active" personal identification with which the audience sympathies and is enculturated because it is taught.He who cannot justify his own conclusions cannot be considered a totally educated person.Still,there is a need for guidance if the pupil is not to get in over his head and tend to drown rather than learn to swim and particpate for the good of all.

The place to start with Plato
If you want to start with Plato, this is the place. Plato, through Socrates, indulges in a huge polemic. The problem with a polemic is that unless you have a clear idea of who he is arguing against and why you won'tunderstand what is being said. Havelock's aim is to situate you in theancient Greece of Plato's day and explain exactly what Plato is on about.Suddenly Plato doesn't seem quite so bizarre if you have some idea why hesays what he says. Havelock starts with the tenth book of the Republic: whydoes Plato ban poets and poetry (especially Homer) from his utopia? Platowas no mean poet himself, so what does this mean? Havelock tells you intechnicolor the why's and wherefore's of the historical situation so thatyou can read Republic (and the other dialogues as well) without flyingblind. ... Read more

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Plato, the great philosopher of Athens, was born in 427 BCE. In early manhood an admirer of Socrates, he later founded the famous school of philosophy in the grove Academus. Much else recorded of his life is uncertain; that he left Athens for a time after Socrates' execution is probable; that later he went to Cyrene, Egypt, and Sicily is possible; that he was wealthy is likely; that he was critical of 'advanced' democracy is obvious. He lived to be 80 years old. Linguistic tests including those of computer science still try to establish the order of his extant philosophical dialogues, written in splendid prose and revealing Socrates' mind fused with Plato's thought.

In Laches, Charmides, and Lysis, Socrates and others discuss separate ethical conceptions. Protagoras, Ion, and Meno discuss whether righteousness can be taught. In Gorgias, Socrates is estranged from his city's thought, and his fate is impending. The Apology (not a dialogue), Crito, Euthyphro, and the unforgettable Phaedo relate the trial and death of Socrates and propound the immortality of the soul. In the famous Symposium and Phaedrus, written when Socrates was still alive, we find the origin and meaning of love. Cratylus discusses the nature of language. The great masterpiece in ten books, the Republic, concerns righteousness (and involves education, equality of the sexes, the structure of society, and abolition of slavery). Of the six so-called dialectical dialogues Euthydemus deals with philosophy; metaphysical Parmenides is about general concepts and absolute being; Theaetetus reasons about the theory of knowledge. Of its sequels, Sophist deals with not-being; Politicus with good and bad statesmanship and governments; Philebus with what is good. The Timaeus seeks the origin of the visible universe out of abstract geometrical elements. The unfinished Critias treats of lost Atlantis. Unfinished also is Plato's last work of the twelve books of Laws (Socrates is absent from it), a critical discussion of principles of law which Plato thought the Greeks might accept.

The Loeb Classical Library edition of Plato is in twelve volumes.

Customer Reviews (3)

One of the Greatest Gems of Human Wisdom
This should be essential reading as it is one of the greatest works of human history.Subjects include ethics and righteousness, but my favorite read is found in Critias with Solon's description of Atlantis (possibly describing the region between the southern tip of UK and the French coast, a shallow area now covered in deep mud after the deluge swept across the Atlantic from the melt of the last ice age and the bursting of Hudson Bay?).

There is a lot of Plato packed into this volume.Perhaps the most important and overlooked section is found in Timaeus, where Plato describes nothing short of The Creation of The Universe.Here we find the first introduction to Atlantis, but more important, we find a fascinating dialog on mathematics by Timaeus who was a student of the Pythagorean school.Naturally, sections from this vol are conveniently missing, just like many of the other great works from the classical period that survived the Dark Ages.

One has to wonder just how common the mathematical knowledge was back in the day, as described by Plato?Like Pythagorean theorem, it most likely came from Egypt where Plato is known to have spent some time. In the Timaeus we find nothing less than the mathematical construct of the Universe, from nothingness to what we are today; from "chaos to cosmos".This is high sacred geometry at its finest, and after deep meditation we could reasonably wonder if Plato understood molecular construct 2,400 years ago?

I generally have a bias to preferring the Loeb editions, though while not essential, for anyone working with the Platonic mathematics I think it is helpful to have a copy of the Penguin edition as it offers some better diagrams that I found helpful on the start of this journey.If you are buying the book to gain greater awareness of the mathematics (the only reason this should be studied imho), I suggest acquiring the works of Proclus, but unless you can read modern Greek and get the full translation, be prepared for the garbage academia versions currently available in English with their poor commentary and ridiculous prices.

Obscure but interesting dialogues
Like most volumes in the Loeb series, the emphasis is not on word-for-word precision in the translation, but on acheiving greater readability in broader terms. Since the original text in ancient Greek is provided on the facing page, the editors assume that anyone with a little knowledge of Greek can supplement the looseness of the translation by referring to the original. And in general, the compromises made in this way are good ones throughout the series. This particular volume brings together some of the more obscure (perhaps even spurious) dialogues in the Platonic corpus, but these are still worth reading. The Charmides, the two Alcibiades dialogues and the Theages certainly repay caareful study. Lamb's translation is faithful enough to give a good sense of the text, and the Greek is included for anyone who wants to get even closer to Plato's thinking.

Useful for the specialist and the student
Like most volumes in the Loeb series, the emphasis is not on word-for-word precision in the translation, but on acheiving greater readability in broader terms. Since the original text in ancient Greek is provided on the facing page, the editors assume that anyone with a little knowledge of Greek can supplement the looseness of the translation by referring to the original. And in general, the compromises made in this way are good ones throughout the series. Bury's translation is one of the better ones in the series, achieving readability without sacrificing fidelity. There are also some fine notes to help with some of the more obscure mathematical arguments. It is also very useful to have the Timaeus and the Critias presented together. The inclusion of the Epistles along with the Cleitophon and Menexenus may seem a little miscellaneous, but these are fine translations of interesting texts. ... Read more

Product Description
This accessible supplement makes Plato's texts come alive for students by showing them how to read, think critically, and write about these key classic works. Engaging interactive devices draw students into an intimate philosophical encounter that they can model in later work in philosophy. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (4)

Two thumbs up
Using this book almost everyday in my class.. great to own if you are practicing your philosophic ideas. (its a work book.)

Arrived just fine...
Took about 5 days, but it arrived in good condition.Very happy with purchase.

Ideal introduction to the study of philosophy
Christopher Biffle's A Guided Tour of Five Works by Plato is an ideal introduction to the study of philosophy as an academic activity. While there are several introductory philosophy books that allow the reader to wander and ponder through the dreamy early stages of philosophical wonder, this book gets down to business. Biffle structures his guided tour as an interactive reader of five of Plato's most important and most accessible dialogues: Euthyphro, Apology and Crito complete; the "Death Scene" from Phaedo, and the "Allegory of the Cave" from Republic.

Through this tour students will have an opportunity to actively engage in philosophy as they move through the text. Biffle prepares the reader for the journey by providing just enough background about Socrates,Plato and the history of Athens to satisfy a rudimentary curiosity. As the reader embarks, he will begin to encounter some of the features which make Biffle's book so valuable. This tour is an adventure in thinking, and the reader is challenged to summarize and extract important developments as the tour progresses. The reader is asked to respond to prompts such as "The main things I want to remember about Socrates and the history of Athens are..." Thus the reader himself becomes a participant in the dialogue.

From this introduction Biffle guides us into the dialogues themselves, beginning with Euthyphro. Each selection is introduced with a series of questions designed to open up the reader's mind to some of the ideas and issues to be explored in the dialogues themselves. During the reading of the dialogue, the reader is asked to underline and annotate the text as he goes; thus the reader becomes actively and critically engaged in the text rather than passively drifting through it. By clarifying and analyzing Plato, the student begins to clarify and analyze his own thinking. This approach to philosophy is also an ideal approach to developing reading, writing and critical thinking skills for students.

Although Biffle's tour can be taken solo (in the capable hands of both Biffle and Plato), it is best taken with a group of fellow travelers who can share the journey. It is a fantastic text for use in a class or as the basis for a philosophy discussion group. There are quizzes and exercises to check understanding, but the book really encourages the reader to develop his own thinking, and ultimately to become a curious and critical questioner of the world--what Socrates or Plato would have called a philosopher.

Best Plato Textbook is a Superb Teaching Tool
The book is an excellent teaching tool for undergraduate and graduate level Philosophy courses.This text would be the only one I would use at the high school level (and Plato should be taught in GATE and AP type English classes, as he was back in the "good old days" when the goal of academic 'arete' had real importance in lesson planning).The book includes the dialogues surrounding the trial and death of Socrates, Euthyphro, Crito, and Apology, the Death Scene of Socrates from the Phaedo, and the "Allegory of the Cave" from the Republic.While the translations are not always the best, they are very good, come from the greatest source (Jowett) and quite sufficient for communicating all the important points in the dialogues.
Best of all are the copious margins which surround the text on every page and serve the wonderful purpose of teaching students to annotate their text with marginalia. The creation of marginalia is an ancient scholarly art, quintessentially described by Edmond Bourdoux Szekeley, one of the last of the old world scholars of that grand continental tradition known as the Sorbonne Method, which he describes in his now out of print masterpiece, "The Art of Study".In that book, Szekeley details the method by which, through nearly a millinium, successive generations of Sorbonne scholars (dating back before Aquinas), parsed and analyzed arguments and extracted the hermaneutic esssence of their texts.
Biffle provides cues and prompts with relevant and incisive questions (he knows Bloom's Taxonomy as well as he knows his Philosophy), which not only makes students accountable to do the reading (you can collect your students' texts to see if their doing it), but provides the student with a time-proven, eminently productive study skill.
Biffle also provides excellent background material, supplementary writing exercises, and material for quizzes, all you really need.
A few points which Biffle addresses "to the teacher" in his introduction are in order: 1) "My philosophy students need a lot of practice in orderly thinking and writing. They need practice in following a logical pattern, giving reasons for assertions, clarifying points with examples, and quoting supporting material from a text. There is plenty of practice here." 2) "The truth is most students will read Plato's dialogues only once in their lives.We need to slow down that precious reading and make it as fruitful as possible. The reading and writing tasks I have incorporated in this book are designed to help students underline, write in margins, reread, paraphrase, outline, and eventually analyze philosophical classics in an orderly way." ... Read more

Customer Reviews (3)

All of Allen's translations ROCK
The five volumes that Allen has produced so far are much more than just another set of translations of Plato. They provide a coherent and accessible stand-alone course of study in Platonic philosophy. One can start right from the Preface of the fist volume and read them all straight through to the very end of Allen's masterful edition of the Republic. In fact - that is exactly what one should do.

Allen develops a number of crucial ideas in his commentaries/introductions. One of his most brilliant strokes is his demonstration of how the "Forms" are already strongly implied in the early "Socratic" dialogs. Those dialogs assume that such questions as "what is virtue?" are meaningful - and the way in which Plato assumes this already assumes that there is such a thing as Virtue, ie, the "Form" of virtue.

The order in which the dialogs are arranged is far from conventional - and yet there is a master plan behind it all. If one takes the time to read (and probably re-read) the Introductions/Commentaries while reading the dialogs in the given order, the maximum benefit will be gained from Allen's depth of knowledge and insight.

If you are starting from scratch I would highly recommend also reading Pierre Hadot's "What Is Ancient Philosophy?" in parallel with this first volume. Julia Annas' "Introduction" to the Republic would also be good to have once you get to that volume (which is the fifth and last one so far - as of August 2007).

One hopes that Allen is at work right now on a translation of the Phaedo!!!!

Very clear, well organized and engaging.
This book is excellent for anyone interested in the study of Platonic philosophy, both in the original dialogue form and in commentary which elucidates the primary text. Allen assembles six dialogues in this volume, which all deal with several major themes; the necessity of true definition of words if any meaningful dialogue is to be carried on regarding them (such as virtue, piety, justice, etc.), the death of Socrates, and absolute necessity of caring for the excellence of the soul through acting justly and absolutely rejecting injustice. Allen begins each chapter with a clear and very instructive discourse on the dialogue, as well as relating it to others which illustrate the same concepts dealt with in the present one. He always avoids devloving into the effetism of academic terminology, so he is very readable. He expresses the true meaning of the dialogue in language which all can understand. The dialogues are translated in a very understandable contemporary language, yet somehow manage to maintain the linguistic, poetic power of the original. I found that reading the commentary first, then the dialogue, and finally rereading the commentary provided a wonderful way to use this book. I can't wait to read the entire set! Buy and read it!

The best work of Crito
Crito was a great book to read about for philosophy. It was very interesting in various ways. ... Read more

Product Description
One of Plato’s most profound and beautiful works, Phaedrus takes the form of a dialogue between Socrates and Phaedrus, an amateur rhetorical enthusiast, on the topic of passionate or romantic love.Concerned with establishing principles of rhetoric, it argues that rhetoric is only acceptable as an art when it is firmly based on the truth inspired by love, the common experience of true philosophic activity. It is in this dialogue that Plato employs the famous image of love as the driver of the chariot of souls. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (2)

Writing and Eros
This Platonic dialogue is one of the most intriguing and crisply enjoyable. It is here that Socrates relates his ideas on the complex intermingling of the beautiful and the good, as well as brilliant reflections on speech and writing. "Since it is the function of speech to lead souls by persuasion, he who is to be a rhetorician must know the various forms of soul." A privileging of speech over writing is preeminent in Western thought, perhaps it originates here.Writing is exterior to the soul, to the 'psyche,' thus it is mere mimesis. This is a wonderfully mysterious and complex text. Be sure to consult Fowler's translation in the loeb edition.

Get another translation.
This is one of my favorite Platonic dialogues, an analysis of both rhetoric and love which leads to some compelling discussions. However, the translation offered by Pengin Classics is hideously lacking. I can't put my finger on exactly where it goes wrong, but the translator makes it a pain to get through just one page. Everything seems laborous and technical, including the normally exquisite speeches.

Get another translation instead. Might I suggest the one published by Hackett? Or perhaps Cornell University Press? Both of those translations take care to make the dialogue as lively annd exciting as it rightfully should be. ... Read more

Product Description
Taking the form of a dialogue among Socrates, Gorgias, Polus, and Callicles, the Gorgias debates crucial questions about the nature of government. While the aspiring politician Callicles propounds the view that might is right, and the rhetorician Gorgias argues that oratory and the power to persuade represent "the greatest good," Socrates insists on the duty of politicians to consider the welfare of their citizens—a duty he believed had been dishonored in the Athens of his time. The dialogue offers fascinating insights into how classical Athens was governed and creates a theoretical framework that has been highly influential on subsequent political debate. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (8)

Good read
I had to read this for school anyway but I found a new respect for Socrates. This book was written by Plato sine Socrates could not read or write. It takes place in Ancient Greece, Socrates is talking to politicians about rhetoric and it becomes a deep discussion about morality. To put it in simple terms. Good lessons though. I would say that it is actually a must read.

book
seems to be some type of language from a country in the mediterreanian or something. paper with ink all over it

A good enough translation for any student of Plato.
An easily approachable work is not a common phrase for Plato, but this rendition of the Gorgias presents diction and translation in an accurate and approachable manner, and luckily for the reader includes the necessary Stephanus pages.The only gripe I have is the constant flipping to the rear of the book for the notes of the author.I much prefer chopped pages to a constant back and forth.

A student of philosophy and most classics students will find this a good enough translation, but of course anyone pursuing this into graduate studies will want to look at the original.

Talks About Rhetoric Versus Philosophy
I've been reading some of Plato's diologues to find out more about Plato himself.

I consider these books to be light reading.They have a certain charm and you can relate to the various speakers of which Socrates is the main one for the dialogues I have read so far.

The main point here is comparing rhetoric or the art of verbal persuasion to philosophy.

Socrates' two great loves were beautiful boys and philosophy so you can guess which side Socrates was on.

He considers rhetoric to be a form of deception really which only superficially informs people for the sake of pursuasion for selfish motives.

Philosophy on the other hand is the real truth.

It talks about how if Socrates was ever pulled into court his lack of skills with rhetoric would make him easy prey for his accusers.

Since Socrates was executed perhaps this is what really happened I don't know.

I find these books interesting because Plato and those others believed in the mythological gods.

The explantory notes indicate that the three brothers Zeus, Poseidon, and Pluto divided up this earthly domain.

Zeus took the realm of the sky, Poseidon took the surface of the earth which includes the sea, and Pluto took the underworld.

Plato apparently didn't think too much of cooks.He calls cooking a knack and compares it to medicine which is a skill he says.

Plato gets carried away sometimes with his analogies.

Undoubtedly Plato's thoughts evolved throughout his life.

All of his many writings are I guess a snapshot of his thought processes at a particular time.

After I finish a few more of these dialogues I'll read 'The Laws' which I think was one of Plato's last works.

The next one on my list is 'Symposium'.

Jeff Marzano

A great translation
Nichols' translation of Gorgias is indeed impressive. I have heard and read other translations of Gorgias- but the word choice of those other translation is too unadmirable(like "knack"-a word that is not fitted with Platonic dialogues). Nichols keeps consistent and easily understandable words. He doesn't go about saying "smart" words- unlike others who seem to try and exhaust their vocab. before they finish the work. ... Read more

Product Description

Plato, the great philosopher of Athens, was born in 427 BCE. In early manhood an admirer of Socrates, he later founded the famous school of philosophy in the grove Academus. Much else recorded of his life is uncertain; that he left Athens for a time after Socrates' execution is probable; that later he went to Cyrene, Egypt, and Sicily is possible; that he was wealthy is likely; that he was critical of 'advanced' democracy is obvious. He lived to be 80 years old. Linguistic tests including those of computer science still try to establish the order of his extant philosophical dialogues, written in splendid prose and revealing Socrates' mind fused with Plato's thought.

In Laches, Charmides, and Lysis, Socrates and others discuss separate ethical conceptions. Protagoras, Ion, and Meno discuss whether righteousness can be taught. In Gorgias, Socrates is estranged from his city's thought, and his fate is impending. The Apology (not a dialogue), Crito, Euthyphro, and the unforgettable Phaedo relate the trial and death of Socrates and propound the immortality of the soul. In the famous Symposium and Phaedrus, written when Socrates was still alive, we find the origin and meaning of love. Cratylus discusses the nature of language. The great masterpiece in ten books, the Republic, concerns righteousness (and involves education, equality of the sexes, the structure of society, and abolition of slavery). Of the six so-called dialectical dialogues Euthydemus deals with philosophy; metaphysical Parmenides is about general concepts and absolute being; Theaetetus reasons about the theory of knowledge. Of its sequels, Sophist deals with not-being; Politicus with good and bad statesmanship and governments; Philebus with what is good. The Timaeus seeks the origin of the visible universe out of abstract geometrical elements. The unfinished Critias treats of lost Atlantis. Unfinished also is Plato's last work of the twelve books of Laws (Socrates is absent from it), a critical discussion of principles of law which Plato thought the Greeks might accept.

The Loeb Classical Library edition of Plato is in twelve volumes.

Customer Reviews (1)

Reason allows us to live for something
I read Plato's Republic for a graduate philosophy class. I paid close attention to Plato's thesis of courage in his Republic, which I expound below. I found G. M. A. Grubb's translation to be the best of several I read.

Plato's project in the Republic is to form the "perfect" society. "Reason allows us to live for something." Through reason we set goals and organize our lives around achieving goals. Plato argues that the government's duty to citizens is to provide justice, and educate citizens both men and women. The state's social structure stood for justice and was divided into three groups. Rulers- those trained to use reason and posses wisdom. Guardians/ Soldiers have courage/spirit. Artisans have moderation of appetites. Plato's ideal ruler, the "Philosopher King," should be 50 years old with 15 years of government experience and should have studied science and philosophy. The ruler must show a mastery of Arete = excellence vs. akrasia= weakening of will, or no self-control. The ruler should think logically not emotionally. In the Republic to insure excellent people Plato advocated selective breeding of excellent unmarried people who lived in communes, who did not own property.

Plato describes five types of government in the Republic:

1. Aristocracy- Plato considered this the best form of government; aristocracy embodies wisdom of the philosopher king.
2. Timocracy- military government embodies virtues of honor and courage.
3. Oligarchy- rule by a rich elite, their vice is greed, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.
4. Democracy- mob rule, and chaos, it represents akrasia people are slaves of their desires and have little self-control.
5. Tyranny- this is the worst form of government. The vice is selfishness, one power crazed person in control.

Plato's purpose in the Republic is not to perfect the character of people as an end but only as a means to an end. Plato's aim has a definite effect on his definition of courage. I find this is especially the case when exploring his ideas on how to educate the Guardians of the city to act courageously. Plato's goal is to match a person's character disposition to a job they are naturally inclined to perform in the city. Once he [Plato] has introduced the city in 369 b-d, he immediately advances the thesis, which is to dominate the rest of the Republic, that the needs of its inhabitants can best be met if each person in it performs that single task, and that single task alone, for which he is naturally suited.

With this view of human nature in mind, in Plato's model society, he divides the citizens into three classes. Rulers from whom the "philosopher king," will be selected, Guardians who are soldiers to protect the state, and the rest of the citizens classified as Artisans This division of citizens precipitates a discussion by Plato on the four virtues that these citizens will bring to the state. In the history of philosophy this becomes known as the "four cardinal virtues"; wisdom, courage, moderation, and justice. With this introduction of courage as a virtue, Plato takes another crack at defining courage. What is also important to observe is that he introduces a new element, that of education, in his definition of courage that was absent from his early dialogue Laches.

Plato espouses the idea in the Republic that the Guardians need to possess certain natural qualities; such as strength, speed, and courage. It seems odd that Plato classifies courage as a natural quality possessed by certain people. This automatically presupposes that not all people can practice the virtue of courage. Plato's successor Aristotle, will argue against this notion in his EN. In addition, Plato argues that in order for people to be courageous they must also have an aggressive thumos [passion], which makes both people and animals fearless and determined. Plato fears that the Guardians could be susceptible to using their passion of aggressiveness against there own people. Therefore, he counsels that the Guardians who naturally possess aggressiveness have to also naturally possess the opposite characteristic of gentleness as well, so that their aggressiveness will only be used against the enemy and not their own citizenry.

This dialogue is significant in that it helps to flesh out Plato's notion of what ultimately makes a person courageous. First, Plato argues that the goal of education, which he compares to a sheepdog, is to watch over the Guardians; thus, with the proper education he believes the proper balance between exciting their aggressiveness and subduing it in the Guardians can be achieved. Second, Plato believes that if aggressiveness is properly excited by physical training, then the Guardian will be courageous. If overly excited they will be like a wild beast devoid of grace and will become ignorant. Finally, Plato argues in his education section of the Republic, that to counter the possibility of a Guardian developing an over excited passion of aggressiveness, it is necessary to teach the Guardians literature and music during the same time they undergo physical training.

Thus, Plato hopes this balanced approach to educating the Guardians will then lead to courage being a controlled and calm act of endurance in battle, instead of a foolhardy lust for blood letting and an emotional reaction to war. Not only does Plato spend a significant amount of time advocating for the tools necessary to subdue the passions of the Guardians in book three of the Republic, but another important point in Plato's philosophy to consider is that since he believes that a Guardian's aggressiveness is influenced by literature he is very concerned by what type of literature is taught to them as well. Plato is very concerned that the archetypical heroic warrior Achilles, as depicted in Homer's epic poem the Iliad along with those depicted in Greek tragedies performed on stage, are bad examples for the Guardians to emulate. Consequently, Plato advises that heroes of Greek literature should be depicted as thoughtfully courageous and in control of their anger and physically resilient warriors. Thus, Plato seems to be using the term andreia [courage] to cover (at the least) both courage proper, which can only exist in some kind of unity with the other virtues, and raw mettle or aggressiveness, which can exist in conjunction with various vices. Plato in book four of the Republic does move on from his study of thumos as the prime motivating force to act courageously, to actually defining the virtue of courage. Plato defines courage as a person's ability to subdue their aggressiveness by the orders of their reason in regards to what they should be fearful of regardless of their own feelings of pain or pleasure. Plato's expounded definition of the virtue of courage is that a courageous act is an amalgamation of a person's natural passion of aggressiveness and properly educated rational beliefs over what is worthy regarding the possibility of losing their life or limb over.
... Read more

Product Description
Rich in drama and humor, this volume of seven dialogues includes the controversial Ion, a debate on poetic inspiration; Laches, in which Socrates seeks to define bravery; and Euthydemus, which considers the relationship between philosophy and politics. Together, these dialogues provide a definitive portrait of the real Socrates and raise issues still keenly debated by philosophers, forming an incisive overview of Plato’s philosophy.

As the father of Western philosophy, who transformed Greek thought with his questioning insights into life and ethics, Socrates was a powerful inspiration—and major irritant—to the Athenians of his day. After his trial and execution on charges of heresy and the corruption of young minds, his greatest pupil, Plato, wrote these early dialogues as an act of homage. ... Read more

Product Description
The Republic written by legendary philosopher Plato is widely considered to be one of the top Socratic dialogues of all time. This great classic will surely attract a whole new generation of readers. For many, The Republic is required reading for various courses and curriculums. And for others who simply enjoy reading timeless pieces of classic literature, this gem by Plato is highly recommended. Published by Classic Books America and beautifully produced, The Republic, is one of the most influential works of philosophy and political theory ever written. This would make an ideal gift and it should be a part of everyone's personal library. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (6)

Reason allows us to live for something
I read Plato's Republic for a graduate philosophy class.I paid close attention to Plato's thesis of courage in his Republic, which I expound below.I found G. M. A. Grubb's translationto be the best of several I read.

Plato's project in the Republic is to form the "perfect" society."Reason allows us to live for something."Through reason we set goals and organize our lives around achieving goals.Plato argues that the government's duty to citizens is to provide justice, and educate citizens both men and women.The state's social structure stood for justice and was divided into three groups.Rulers- those trained to use reason and posses wisdom.Guardians/ Soldiers have courage/spirit.Artisans have moderation of appetites.Plato's ideal ruler, the "Philosopher King," should be 50 years old with 15 years of government experience and should have studied science and philosophy.The ruler must show a mastery of Arete = excellence vs. akrasia= weakening of will, or no self-control.The ruler should think logically not emotionally.In the Republic to insure excellent people Plato advocated selective breeding of excellent unmarried people who lived in communes, who did not own property.

Plato describes five types of government in the Republic:

1. Aristocracy- Plato considered this the best form of government; aristocracy embodies wisdom of the philosopher king.
2. Timocracy- military government embodies virtues of honor and courage.
3. Oligarchy- rule by a rich elite, their vice is greed, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.
4. Democracy- mob rule, and chaos, it represents akrasia people are slaves of their desires and have little self-control.
5. Tyranny- this is the worst form of government.The vice is selfishness, one power crazed person in control.

Plato's purpose in the Republic is not to perfect the character of people as an end but only as a means to an end.Plato's aim has a definite effect on his definition of courage.I find this is especially the case when exploring his ideas on how to educate the Guardians of the city to act courageously.Plato's goal is to match a person's character disposition to a job they are naturally inclined to perform in the city.Once he [Plato] has introduced the city in 369 b-d, he immediately advances the thesis, which is to dominate the rest of the Republic, that the needs of its inhabitants can best be met if each person in it performs that single task, and that single task alone, for which he is naturally suited.

With this view of human nature in mind, in Plato's model society, he divides the citizens into three classes.Rulers from whom the "philosopher king," will be selected, Guardians who are soldiers to protect the state, and the rest of the citizens classified as ArtisansThis division of citizens precipitates a discussion by Plato on the four virtues that these citizens will bring to the state.In the history of philosophy this becomes known as the "four cardinal virtues"; wisdom, courage, moderation, and justice.With this introduction of courage as a virtue, Plato takes another crack at defining courage.What is also important to observe is that he introduces a new element, that of education, in his definition of courage that was absent from his early dialogue Laches.

Plato espouses the idea in the Republic that the Guardians need to possess certain natural qualities; such as strength, speed, and courage.It seems odd that Plato classifies courage as a natural quality possessed by certain people.This automatically presupposes that not all people can practice the virtue of courage.Plato's successor Aristotle, will argue against this notion in his EN.In addition, Plato argues that in order for people to be courageous they must also have an aggressive thumos [passion], which makes both people and animals fearless and determined.Plato fears that the Guardians could be susceptible to using their passion of aggressiveness against there own people.Therefore, he counsels that the Guardians who naturally possess aggressiveness have to also naturally possess the opposite characteristic of gentleness as well, so that their aggressiveness will only be used against the enemy and not their own citizenry.

This dialogue is significant in that it helps to flesh out Plato's notion of what ultimately makes a person courageous.First, Plato argues that the goal of education, which he compares to a sheepdog, is to watch over the Guardians; thus, with the proper education he believes the proper balance between exciting their aggressiveness and subduing it in the Guardians can be achieved.Second, Plato believes that if aggressiveness is properly excited by physical training, then the Guardian will be courageous.If overly excited they will be like a wild beast devoid of grace and will become ignorant.Finally, Plato argues in his education section of the Republic, that to counter the possibility of a Guardian developing an over excited passion of aggressiveness, it is necessary to teach the Guardians literature and music during the same time they undergo physical training.

Thus, Plato hopes this balanced approach to educating the Guardians will then lead to courage being a controlled and calm act of endurance in battle, instead of a foolhardy lust for blood letting and an emotional reaction to war.Not only does Plato spend a significant amount of time advocating for the tools necessary to subdue the passions of the Guardians in book three of the Republic, but another important point in Plato's philosophy to consider is that since he believes that a Guardian's aggressiveness is influenced by literature he is very concerned by what type of literature is taught to them as well.Plato is very concerned that the archetypical heroic warrior Achilles, as depicted in Homer's epic poem the Iliad along with those depicted in Greek tragedies performed on stage, are bad examples for the Guardians to emulate.Consequently, Plato advises that heroes of Greek literature should be depicted as thoughtfully courageous and in control of their anger and physically resilient warriors.Thus, Plato seems to be using the term andreia [courage] to cover (at the least) both courage proper, which can only exist in some kind of unity with the other virtues, and raw mettle or aggressiveness, which can exist in conjunction with various vices.Plato in book four of the Republic does move on from his study of thumos as the prime motivating force to act courageously, to actually defining the virtue of courage.Plato defines courage as a person's ability to subdue their aggressiveness by the orders of their reason in regards to what they should be fearful of regardless of their own feelings of pain or pleasure.Plato's expounded definition of the virtue of courage is that a courageous act is an amalgamation of a person's natural passion of aggressiveness and properly educated rational beliefs over what is worthy regarding the possibility of losing their life or limb over.

I love the CD version of this book.
The CD version is $125, but you get all 10 books of the Republic on 10 CDs. Each book has its own CD, each an hour or longer.It's not just 1 reader.The book is a dialog and the audio book version has a number of actors playing the different roles of the dialog.William Siglis plays Socrates and he does a wonderful job.He has a distinctive voice and performs his role very well, inflecting his voice, chuckling, he acts!

I gasped at the price, but I say it is well worth it.You get over 20 hours of stimulating discourse.There is nothing else like it.The reviews for the paperback book are mingled with this review of the CD.

Here's a link to the CD version if you haven't found it yet (it is under "Also Available as: audio CD"

Here's the link:Plato's Republic (complete)

Really great
This version is a really nice one, better than others I've seen.It's easy to navigate because it has the table of contents and the text is actually formatted.

Great read
Makes me wish I had read it when I was younger.Perhaps I wouldn't have liked a required reading in school, but as an older adult I found it interesting.

The classic--what did you expect?
There probably isn't much I can add in a scholarly vein to what people have already said about Plato. So I thought I would make a few personal observations from the standpoint of a somewhat philosophically literate, 21st century man who is reading such an august classic in middle age.

I came to this book with more of a background in modern epistemology and the philosophy of science than in classical philosophy. So political philosophy isn't exactly my strong suit, but nevertheless I found the book interesting reading in a way I hadn't really thought of before.

Actually, I had read portions of this book 20 years ago when I was a young student first studying philosophy, and I have to say, there is something to be said for having a more mature outlook in approaching such a venerable work. At the time I thought political philosophy pretty dull stuff, and besides, I felt there was no real way to answer any of the important political questions that get debated here, despite the easy way Socrates disposes of everybody else's half-baked opinions and theories.

The fact is, if you move ahead 2400 years and read something like Karl Popper's "The Open Society and Its Enemies," an advanced modern work, you can see how much, or how little, political philosophy has progressed in the last 24 centuries.

Well, that may be true, but at least with this book you know where it basically all started. The best way to decide this issue is to read the book and decide for yourself.

Although entitled "The Republic," this society isn't like any republic you've probably ever read about. Plato proposes an ant- like communism where there is no private ownership of property, philosophers are kings, kings are philosophers, people cultivate physical, moral, and ethical qualities, and the idea of the good takes the place of political and social virtues.

Another odd facet is that the bravest citizens are permitted more wives than those less brave in battle. And then there is the infamous proposition that all poets and artists are to be banished since they are harmful purveyors of false illusions.

I find the Socratic method as a way of moving along the dialogue between the participants sort of interesting, and it is certainly an effective device. However, none of these people, even the famous Sophist Thrasymachus, are really Socrates' intellectual equal, so he really doesn't have much competition here.

(Cheap shot from the "Peanut Gallery"--not to digress too much, here, but if Socrates was supposed to be so wise, how come he married such a shrewish woman for a wife, Xantippe? They joked about how funny and incongruous that was even in Socrates's day).

There was one other thing I was wondering about. If ancient Athens disproportionately had so many towering intellects, relative to its small population (about 20,000 people, most of whom were slaves anyway), you'd think they would show up in Plato's dialogues more. But all we seem to get are second-raters who are really no match for the clever Socrates. Of course, since the dialogues we have were written down by Socrates' most famous student, Plato, perhaps the cards were stacked a little in his teacher's favor.

Yet I would say this is still a great book. Classical scholars say there are more perfect, less flawed dialogues than Plato's Republic, but none that are as profound, wide-ranging, and as influential and important for later philosophy. As someone once wrote, in a sense the entire history of western philosophy "consists of nothing but footnotes to Plato." After finally reading it, I can see why there is so much truth to that statement. ... Read more

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Customer Reviews (2)

Reason allows us to live for something
I read Plato's Republic for a graduate philosophy class.I paid close attention to Plato's thesis of courage in his Republic, which I expound below.I found G. M. A. Grubb's translationto be the best of several I read.

Plato's project in the Republic is to form the "perfect" society."Reason allows us to live for something."Through reason we set goals and organize our lives around achieving goals.Plato argues that the government's duty to citizens is to provide justice, and educate citizens both men and women.The state's social structure stood for justice and was divided into three groups.Rulers- those trained to use reason and posses wisdom.Guardians/ Soldiers have courage/spirit.Artisans have moderation of appetites.Plato's ideal ruler, the "Philosopher King," should be 50 years old with 15 years of government experience and should have studied science and philosophy.The ruler must show a mastery of Arete = excellence vs. akrasia= weakening of will, or no self-control.The ruler should think logically not emotionally.In the Republic to insure excellent people Plato advocated selective breeding of excellent unmarried people who lived in communes, who did not own property.

Plato describes five types of government in the Republic:

1. Aristocracy- Plato considered this the best form of government; aristocracy embodies wisdom of the philosopher king.
2. Timocracy- military government embodies virtues of honor and courage.
3. Oligarchy- rule by a rich elite, their vice is greed, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.
4. Democracy- mob rule, and chaos, it represents akrasia people are slaves of their desires and have little self-control.
5. Tyranny- this is the worst form of government.The vice is selfishness, one power crazed person in control.

Plato's purpose in the Republic is not to perfect the character of people as an end but only as a means to an end.Plato's aim has a definite effect on his definition of courage.I find this is especially the case when exploring his ideas on how to educate the Guardians of the city to act courageously.Plato's goal is to match a person's character disposition to a job they are naturally inclined to perform in the city.Once he [Plato] has introduced the city in 369 b-d, he immediately advances the thesis, which is to dominate the rest of the Republic, that the needs of its inhabitants can best be met if each person in it performs that single task, and that single task alone, for which he is naturally suited.

With this view of human nature in mind, in Plato's model society, he divides the citizens into three classes.Rulers from whom the "philosopher king," will be selected, Guardians who are soldiers to protect the state, and the rest of the citizens classified as ArtisansThis division of citizens precipitates a discussion by Plato on the four virtues that these citizens will bring to the state.In the history of philosophy this becomes known as the "four cardinal virtues"; wisdom, courage, moderation, and justice.With this introduction of courage as a virtue, Plato takes another crack at defining courage.What is also important to observe is that he introduces a new element, that of education, in his definition of courage that was absent from his early dialogue Laches.

Plato espouses the idea in the Republic that the Guardians need to possess certain natural qualities; such as strength, speed, and courage.It seems odd that Plato classifies courage as a natural quality possessed by certain people.This automatically presupposes that not all people can practice the virtue of courage.Plato's successor Aristotle, will argue against this notion in his EN.In addition, Plato argues that in order for people to be courageous they must also have an aggressive thumos [passion], which makes both people and animals fearless and determined.Plato fears that the Guardians could be susceptible to using their passion of aggressiveness against there own people.Therefore, he counsels that the Guardians who naturally possess aggressiveness have to also naturally possess the opposite characteristic of gentleness as well, so that their aggressiveness will only be used against the enemy and not their own citizenry.

This dialogue is significant in that it helps to flesh out Plato's notion of what ultimately makes a person courageous.First, Plato argues that the goal of education, which he compares to a sheepdog, is to watch over the Guardians; thus, with the proper education he believes the proper balance between exciting their aggressiveness and subduing it in the Guardians can be achieved.Second, Plato believes that if aggressiveness is properly excited by physical training, then the Guardian will be courageous.If overly excited they will be like a wild beast devoid of grace and will become ignorant.Finally, Plato argues in his education section of the Republic, that to counter the possibility of a Guardian developing an over excited passion of aggressiveness, it is necessary to teach the Guardians literature and music during the same time they undergo physical training.

Thus, Plato hopes this balanced approach to educating the Guardians will then lead to courage being a controlled and calm act of endurance in battle, instead of a foolhardy lust for blood letting and an emotional reaction to war.Not only does Plato spend a significant amount of time advocating for the tools necessary to subdue the passions of the Guardians in book three of the Republic, but another important point in Plato's philosophy to consider is that since he believes that a Guardian's aggressiveness is influenced by literature he is very concerned by what type of literature is taught to them as well.Plato is very concerned that the archetypical heroic warrior Achilles, as depicted in Homer's epic poem the Iliad along with those depicted in Greek tragedies performed on stage, are bad examples for the Guardians to emulate.Consequently, Plato advises that heroes of Greek literature should be depicted as thoughtfully courageous and in control of their anger and physically resilient warriors.Thus, Plato seems to be using the term andreia [courage] to cover (at the least) both courage proper, which can only exist in some kind of unity with the other virtues, and raw mettle or aggressiveness, which can exist in conjunction with various vices.Plato in book four of the Republic does move on from his study of thumos as the prime motivating force to act courageously, to actually defining the virtue of courage.Plato defines courage as a person's ability to subdue their aggressiveness by the orders of their reason in regards to what they should be fearful of regardless of their own feelings of pain or pleasure.Plato's expounded definition of the virtue of courage is that a courageous act is an amalgamation of a person's natural passion of aggressiveness and properly educated rational beliefs over what is worthy regarding the possibility of losing their life or limb over.

Incredible
This is the translation everyone should read. It's extremely easy to read and it turns theotherwise difficult dialogue in to a type of readable story line that keeps you interested in the mind blowing issues being discussed only a couple thousand years ago. This version definitely brings Plato's Republic back to the present day.
As for the book it self, it's just unbelievable. In the fact that it was written over a thousand years ago.And also because so much has changed since then, but the issues are all things we still contemplate today. This book will change the way you think if you let it. It has been thousands ofyears and still few works of present day writers can rival it. Just incredible. ... Read more

Product Description
CRITICAL THEORY SINCE PLATO is a chronologically-arranged anthology that presents a broad survey of the history and development of literary criticism and theory in Western culture. Written by two well-known scholars in the field of literary study, this well-respected text puts an emphasis on the individual contributors to the development of literary criticism, from Plato and Aristotle to the present. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (5)

Great textbook for a cheap price
The more recent editions are too expensive, pricing close to $200. I bought it for $10 for a theory/criticism class and I'm glad I did.

Very good
The class was horrible, but that's not the book seller's fault. The copy was pristine and arrived in more than the time promised! Very satisfied!

Valuable for generations
This was a frightening book when I had to read it in my LitTheory class.Now I'm so glad I held on to it.It's in my "desert island books " collection along with the Bible, complete works of Shakespeare and a dictionary. It's the volume Harold Bloom probably wishes he'd put together.

Don't let the vast panorama of ideas intimidate you.This tome is meant to be read a little bit at a time.It's a very "back to basics" experience.These ideas comprise the alchemical components of literary thought.Ideally, this is the book you return to in the course of reading whatever literature you fancy.Use it as a touchstone to help you discern, appreciate, and quite plainly, enjoy the art of literature.

Critical Critical Theory
The title says it all. Hazard Adams has compiled a collection of essays, dialogs, excerpts, etc. from Plato to Postmodernism. The selections made could be called the critical pieces of Critical Theory.

I purchased this book to accompany a college level course on Literary Theory, and it served excellently in that capacity. This book is not, however, self-explanatory. You should have some kind of background in theory before diving into this book. The introductions to the book, and to the beginning of each selection are generally enlightening, but still require some basic knowledge of the field. If you haven't had a formal introduction to theory, you may want to purchase a guide, or take a course on it before beginning this book.

However, if you have a good grasp of basic theory, this is an excellent book to help guide you deeper into the field.

Adams presents a useful srvey of critical history.
In Critical Theory Since Plato, Hazard Adams surveys the history of criticsm from Plato through the post-structuralists.Considering the exhaustive nature of his topic, Adams does a good job of presenting abalanced view of the subject.The essays are arranged chronologically,allowing the reader to survey not only a particular author, but thedevelopment of critical theory as well.Each essay is prefaced by anintroduction by Adams.These introductions are helpful to a newcomer tothe subject.A student with no experience working with critical theory,though, may also find it helpful to purchase a critical theory handbook,such as those available by Eagleton.Still, there is no substitute forthe original sources, and Adams has compiled a useful, lively textbook. See also Critical Theory Since 1965 by the same author. ... Read more